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Talk:Trill
The question of Federation membership 2004-05 I have seen no canon information leading to the solid conclusion that the Trill are Federation members. -Dice :Agreed, all we know for certain is Trill sometimes join starfleet, however, so did Nog and the Ferengi are clearly not members. Tyrant 13:50, 21 Jan 2005 (CET) ::Curzon Dax was a'' Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire in the 23rd century. In order for him to '''represent the Federation' -- he must therefore belong to a race that is a member of the Federation -- the Trill. One reason would be because he would have to have the Federations best interests in mind. The exceptions to this rule, of course, are K'Ehleyr and Worf, whom were both raised by or were part human(s), and therefore raised by the Federation. There is no evidence that Curzon was raised by or part anything other than Trill. --Gvsualan 19:41, 21 Jan 2005 (CET) :Ah, I had forgotten that, nice point, excellent speculation. Tyrant 19:47, 21 Jan 2005 (CET) ::: To be an ambassador of a political all that is required is citizenship of that group. Curzon may well have been a citizen of the Federation, but that does not mean that his people are :Well, on that note. Lacking any clear statement of membership from one of the series, it would seem highly likely that Trill is a member world, but not known and therefore not canon. Tyrant 22:43, 13 Mar 2005 (GMT) :::: Worf was the federation ambassador to Kronos, which we all know is not a federation planet. This is not evidence enough. I just cannot believe that none of the crew of the ent-d would have heard of a trill if they were federation members - there are only about 150. ::::: Although a case can be made that an ambassador must be culturally from the planet and race he represents, in the spirit of Star Trek's message of social and racial equality I'm not sure there is a strict rule about this. I don't believe there is one Human Ambassador who represents humans or the Federation or one Vulcan ambassador who represents all of Vulcan. Sarek was clearly the Vulcan ambassador to the Federation. But as we have now, there are numerous ambassadors from different countries who administer to other countries and territories. I'm not sure that in star trek, race would be a priority to represent a particular culture. Picard is often chosen to mediate disputes based on his diplomatic skills and his stature in Starfleet, not his race. ::::: Therefore, if the ambassador is a well-traveled and capable diplomat, I don't see why there couldn't be a Tellerite Federation ambassador to Trill or a Trill Federation ambassador to Klingon who is later posted somewhere else. I don't think ambassadorships are definitive in scope nor is there a shortage of them. :::::: Also, while it is true that Worf, member of a non-Federation species, was a Federation ambassador, and that both he and Nog joined Starfleet without being from a member species, it seems unlikely that the Trill are anything but members. Not only do we have Odan and Dax serving as Ambassadors for the Federation but we have seen multiple Trill in Starfleet. That level of integration into Federation politics and security would seem highly unlikely if they weren't members. Nog and Worf were exceptions, the only such exceptions for their species. Bajorans are another example. Even though Bajor was not a Federation member we saw various Bajorans in Starfleet. However, rather than being an argument against Trill membership the fact that it was clearly mentioned that Bajor was being groomed for entry into the UFP seems to indicate that such a widespread integration was really only possible for current or likely members as it would be a policy of the UFP to encourage future members to become involved at all levels. Logan 5 15:33, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::::::: There is a good fight to be made on either side, however, we still have no reference and are therefore only guessing. Jaf 02:57, 19 Jul 2005 (UTC) :::::::: Note also that the trill scientist working on vortexes was allowed to use the defiant. This points toward till being a member of UFP : i doubt starfleet would lent the Defiant to a foreign power, even a ally. :::::::: RE: Gvsualan: Whether this is sufficient or not to say Trill is member world, this is an awful continuity problem. Trill have been known to mankind for one century at least, and closely enough to have one guy working as a Federation ambassador, and yet, nobody aboard the Ent-d knows about them. Are Starfleet officers illiterate? It would have been much better to just give another species name to DS9 Trills. -- ::::::: Perhaps the solution is a small note under the first paragraph saying something like, "The Trill are most likely members of the Federation for this this and this reason." --Jaf 03:09, 12 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::::::: After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the president of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. An individual may be a member of the Federation without their homeworld or the rest of their species being members. And it seems likely that when dealing with individual diplomats and scientists, the Federation would allow certain jobs and freedoms to individuals and not species, based on who they are and not what they are. Therefore, a non-Federation member (individual) might still get to fly a ship or work on peace talks without that saying anything about their politics or the politics of their species. In conclusion I see no reason to conclude that the Trill are members as a whole or that their planet is. (This is not to say that they are not, just that we really can't know at this point) Jaf 03:13, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::::: I really think that "most likely" is a better solution. We've seen too many Trill in Starfleet for me to think otherwise. Despite the egalitarian nature of the Federation it's been established that Starfleet is not nearly so accommodating and that you are either a member species or need special circumstances. And it's hard to think of special circumstances to cover that many Trill. Logan 5 03:30, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::::::::: Since Beverly Crusher had no prior knowledge about Trills I'm inclined to believe Jaf's point, that Trill haven't (yet) joined the Federation but individuals have applied to Starfleet, like Nog or Worf, on the recommendation of a Starfleet officer above the rank of captain. However, the number of Trills we've seen would suggest that their planet has applied for membership (or will soon). As for Federation Ambassadors, like Curzon Dax, I haven't heard of anything that would preclude someone representing the Federation unless they lacked the skills and qualifications. Dax knew Dr. McCoy in the 23rd century. It's possible, and likely, that McCoy was completely unaware of a Trill's symbiotic nature. Dax may have been an early (or only) Trill to make contact with humans. :::::::: A little detail : In DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" dax, sisko, o'brien and bashir disguise themselves so they can remain unnoticed in the 23rd century starbase. And dax masks her trills spots - this mayindicates that trill are not usual in starfleet at this time. -- :::::::::: Several novels have suggested that it was little-known thing about them off-world until that time. Also remember, according to a couple of DS9 episodes, less than 1% of Trill are joined. - ::::::::::: RE Mike Nobody: Hardly, Emony Dax was judging a gymnastic competition and this was before McCoy had joined Starfleet Medical (or while he was still attending) so was most likely on Earth (and in fact was in the Lives of Dax book, which I know isn't canon but still). Regardless if she was a judge she had probably been well known in the interstellar gymnastics community well before then. My personal theory is that Dax had assumed the Trill on the Ent-D were a different species of Trill (they did afterall, look nothing like other historical Trill, Curzon and Joran both had spots so it's not a "recent mutation" it's more likely that the funny forehead Trill are a sub-species of Trill and so she was just startled.) Also remember that no Starfleet doctor could possibly be trained in every culture's physiology. McCoy barely understood Vulcan physiology and Vulcans were the first species to come into contact with Earth (and had been in such contact over 100 years). Curzon's existence as Federation Ambassador to Qo'Nos ( ) makes it extremely likely that they are in fact Federation members, joining probably before the mid 24th century (Curzons approximate lifetime). There are over 150 members of the UFP, to count the Trill out when the evidence for them as members thus established far outweighs the evidence against - seems silly. Cory 08 Dec 2005, 1450 EST 2006 After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the president of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. He wasn't the president of earth, he was the president of the federation, whos capital planet was earth. bad argument, it all boils down to cannon has it been said that trill is a member or not? the episode where miles and ezri go to visit her mom i think says that the federation has no influence there but that was the orion sector, however they did use a trill to make contact...ezris mom, i think thats as close as i have seen to a cannon ref.KetracelWhiteJunkie 00:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC) : I found a detail that strongly supports Federation membership: in the episode "Dax" it is stated that Klaestron IV has an extradition treaty with the Federation to extradite a Trill criminal.--This user is not Jesus 06:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC) :: I would consider this enough to move Trill's status back to definite Federation member. Cory 06:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC) :::I'm inclined to think she did so because the Enterprise had a mostly-human crew, so it would be easier for her remain unnoticed as just another crewmember if she appeared human.-- 04:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC) :::: RE Logan 5: Bajorans are a very poor example to work from: Given that Bajor was occupied by Cardassia for fifty years and a large number of natives fled the planet it's likely that most of the Bajorans we see in Starfleet are second-generation emigrants to Federation planets---hence, citizens. However, this does offer an explanation for why we see so many Trill in Starfleet: many could simply have been born on Federation member-worlds, as it seems that Trill are well-traveled. :::: RE This user is not Jesus: Jadzia Dax need only be a Federation citizen for them to claim that the extradition treated applies, not everyone on her species' home planet. This only suggests that she is a citizen, not necessarily that the planet Trill is a member-world. 13:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC) ::::: I'm not so sure that second-generation emigrants would automatically be considered citizens. This is the way citizenship works in the United States, and it is called jus soli (Latin for "right of soil"); there is also jus sanguinis ("right of blood") which is citizenship based on parentage and NOT birthplace. For example, someone born in Austria is not automatically an Austrian citizen; his or her parents must already be Austrian citizens. See Wikipedia for more on and . -Etoile 22:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC) :::::: I feel that the Trill are a member of the Federation for several reasons all taken from the TV episodes. 1. The trill have been known to the UFP since before McCoy was a doctor (Jadzia said that her host of the time had a romantic liaison with him and she knew "he would become a doctor because of his hands"). This suggests that the Trill became known to the UFP sometime prior to 2244 and had started to integrate into the Federation community. 2. The majority of Starfleet was (and still is) human. Spock was initially the first Vulcan in Starfleet (something that was later passed to T'Pol) and was originally suppose to be the only non-human on the original 5 year mission. So when Dax went undercover on the USS Enterprise in Trials and Tribble-ations she had to hide her spots. 3. As only 1 out of every 1000 Trill is chosen to be a host, we can assume that this is not covered in Starfleet Medical considering it represents a small proportion of the population (of Trill let alone Starfleet). Medical courses for one species at the moment takes up to five years, imagine the time for 150 species. I would theorize that the course would be structured on most likely encountered species and choose from the following few optional courses. (also crusher referred to the Klingons on treatment when Wolf broke his back suggesting she doesn't know everything about all her crewmates species) 4. Think about the amount of species you would have to know about in Starfleet, I'm sure you couldn't remember all 150 Federation members, their allies, the enemies and anyone you have conducting first contact with, let alone know everything about that species. I don't even know every nation on the planet and there is only 193 UN recognized countries. (Data had encountered 1,754 non-Human races during his tenure with Starfleet. (TNG: "Darmok")) 5. Final piece, when Jadzia is asking the initiate what he would like to do, she suggests Starfleet: if Trill is not a member, he would need a command level Starfleet officer's letter of recommendation (i.e. not her at that time). And as he was an potential host would have little outside contact, Starfleet officers wouldn't give these letters out just to anyone, they would have to know them. So I doubt Jadzia Dax would mention it, unless it was an easy case. And we have seen so many Trill in Stafleet. So in the light of this evidence I would theorise that Trill has been a member since around 2255 - 2285. dlowbridge 04November2006 ::::::: I'd like to offer another potential possible explanation for discussion (as if there aren't enough already): Trill is not a full Federation member, but is allied to the Federation very closely, in a manner resembling Bajor, or other protectorates. We see several instances of Trill in Starfleet (six, as counted over in Talk:Trill (planet)); however, we also see many instances of Bajorans in Starfleet, despite the fact that we have explicit indication that Bajor is not yet a full-fledged Federation member world, as late as 2375. We also know that the diplomatic relations of the UFP allow for a variety of allied status: we see the Evora seeking protectorate status with the UFP in Insurrection, and we know Bajor and the Klingon Empire's ties to the Federation are quite extensive. It may also be further possible that Trill is perhaps in the process of attaining full membership, and perhaps has been so for an extended period.Ereiid 06:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC) 2007 RE Jaz: Worf was raised by humans on a Federation world, so he is not entirely comparable to Curzon. If something similar is true of Curzon, I am not aware that it is anywhere stated in canon. However, to my way of thinking, that does still leave the question open. RE Etoile: In the absence of any indication to the contrary, I would tend to assume that the Federation probably confers citizenship to persons born and raised on Federation worlds. That seems the liberal and open-minded thing to do, and Federation politics in general are modeled after (a liberal Hollywood view of) what US politics might develop into after a couple more centuries. This doesn't make jus soli canon, but it seems the most likely thing. And quite aside from that, he was adopted by Human parents, who were presumably Federation citizens; even Israel, a just sanguinis nation if ever there was one, confers citizenship to such adoptees, and has done since antiquity. Note that in the alternate timeline in , Worf fights for the Federation when they are at war with the Klingon empire. He values his Klingon heritage and culture, but his loyalty lies with the Federation. Consequently, I think it unlikely that Worf's status as a Federation ambassador is relevant here, as he is probably a citizen of the Federation. RE This user is not Jesus: That seems to me like the strongest canon evidence presented in this thread either way. Based on that, I would say that they are likely members, although there is no direct reference to their membership in canon. --Jonadab, 2007 Feb 4 : This is off-topic, but Worf wasn't actually in the alternate timeline in . :: Trill is in the Kalandra Sector which is near the core of the Federation, the Dominion took the Kalandra System, then attacked from that system Betazed, Andor, Tellar and Vulcan so it must be fairly close to those planets. I've read that Trill had first contact with the Vulcans in the early 21st century which suggests they met before the Vulcans met humans, so they would have been known to the Federation since its inception. It is mentioned in a TNG novel that Trill became a member of the Federation in the early 23rd century, whether the novel is canon or not i don't know but Trill is more than likely part of the Federation. ::: As noted at the bottom of the page, in Unity they are members of the Federation. Now if only it was mentioned in the show 06:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC) :::: I'm also in favor of the 'special relationship' theory; becoming a full member of the federation could have required the trill to reveal the existence of the symbionts, which they wanted to keep secret, as per TNG:the host (their own people covet them, imagine if aliens wanted them too!) Also, joined trill might have special privileges in their society, which might violate federation rules against racism, which would bar their complete entry. 17:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC) ::::: RE This user is not Jesus: She doesn't have to be a Federation citizen. The citizenship of the person being extradited isn't necessarily a factor in whether or not the person can be extradited. For instance, Article 3 of the United Kingdom/United States extradition treaty states, Extradition shall not be refused based on the nationality of the person sought. The extradition treaty with Klaestron IV could easily contain a similar clause. Skotos 13:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC) :::::: I have a few ideas on how most people don't know much about the Trill and why they have represented the Federation in the past: 1) They are neutral, but have some ties to the Federation because the Vulcans had made contact with them before the founding of the Federation (kind of like Switzerland is today), 2) Their planet is far enough outside of the Federation or they restrict tourists/don't promote their planet (Sisko had not even been to Trill until Jadzia had to be taken there in 2371), 3) They are renowned diplomats, so the Federation might seek their assistance, 4) In DS9 most of the characters did not know much, if anything, about the Trill (physiologically, and even about their customs), 5) most people (even Sisko had not been to Trill. A few other things are: Dax seemed to immerse itself in other cultures but only volunteered information about itself/its culture/homeworld on a need-to-know basis and other Trill seemed to be wary of other species (as shown by the way the Trill scientists acted in "Rejoined" and the way Cmdr. Sisko and Dr. Bashir were treated on Trill in "Equilibrium"). My conclusions are that Trill is an independent system with no other claims in space, who keep to themselves, and whose only influence on the quadrant is diplomacy. 03:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC) 2008 First, I would like to express my utter shock at how level-headed, even-tempered and convivial this discussion has been. Wikipedia can learn a thing or two from all of you. Second, although not canon, I would just like to mention that Star Trek: Star Charts mentions Trill (Trillius Prime) as having joined the UFP in 2273. Someone may want to ask Geoffrey Mandel where he acquired this information.--Metron4 03:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC) 2009 First forgive me if i have covered something already mentioned i have read most of whats here but not all unfortuanly but i have to side with the Trill being members of the Federation as we have seen atleast two ambassidors and i have seen several Trill serving as starfleet officers and Ezri Dax's Family ran a buisness on a Human planet. And if you noticed for Nog to jion starfleet he had to have a letter from a starfleet officer approving his acceptance how ever there have been that many Trill that Starfleet would have recieaved an overwelming amount of letters of apparoval. And altho i was never seen i remember two incedences were a Trill would have served in the TOS Timeline Odan was one as the length of time he described as serveing federation would have taken up at least two hosts and Jadzia mentioned that a Trill once severed one the Enterprise under Kirk. A few years ago i read a article on the Trill it stated that some of the Federation Top scientist were Trill as their knowledge and experinces get past on to the next host making the more knowledgeable and the wisdom to use it appriotly. Please forgive any spelling mistakes -- 02:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)Obsidian :I'm goner have to agree with Obsidian i've seen quite abit of what is mentioned and there is far to much evidence to support the Trill as being members regardless of what we think. Paramount has stated that Canon infomation is up to what the majority agrees on. So with that said it looks like we will have to count the yeys and nays. --Garris-fraya 02:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC) ::Not quite how it works. Canon here is what is seen/heard on screen and not up to vote. There has been nothing seen/heard on screen that explicitly states that Trill is a member species of the Federation and therefor anything that states it is a member would be speculation/original research. — Morder 03:27, 18 April 2009 (UTC) :yea i got that was an phrase i decided to use since the owners of the Material Have left it to us, witch means we will never know 100%--Garris-fraya 03:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC) :::I just want to point out that a character's knowledge of the biology/history/culture/etc. of a people have no bearing on whether that people are in the Federation. In "The Savage Curtain," when Spock mentioned Surak, the father of Vulcan logic, a key historical (almost religious) figure on par with Jesus or Muhammad, Kirk said "Who?" I don't take this as evidence that the Vulcans were not members of the Federation.--Trebligoniqua 19:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC) :I Saw an episode of enterprise Yesterday(two days and two nights) and you should recall Keyla(the feamale alien who tried to get info from archer) well Archer called her a Suliban who'd been altered to pass as a Tandaran and said that they missed the bone part on the forehead(almost circular/trianglular shape). But she had Trill spots going down the sides of her face and down the rest of her body, and then look at Colonel Grat a Tandar Male and he has no spots but has the bony thing on his fore head witch has a similar look to Odan. So i was just thinking is it possible that the Trill wernt always called Trill and they changed the name of their species later and this would also mean that they had contact with humans before the Fedearation was founded. And could mean that wile we dont know what species attened Archers speech witch founed the federation(Except Andrians, Vulcans, Tellarites) they could have been present in someway as a lot could have happend in almost 20 years since the first encounter with enterprise --Garris-fraya 02:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC) ::::I think we can agree that the Federation is somewhat like the United States. A member of the Federation would be a state (like California). There are people who work in or for the US who are not US-Citizens, at Universities for example. Or there are people from countries outside the USA who are now US-citizens and are government officials too (Arnold Schwarzenegger for example). Both explains why Trill are among the leading Federation scientists and why a Trill could be a Federation ambassador even if the Trill people are not members of the Federation. --Maxwell Fawkes 19:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC) :::::"First, I would like to express my utter shock at how level-headed, even-tempered and convivial this discussion has been. :::::.--Metron4 03:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)" ::::::Welcome to "Starfleet"... this is "how we roll". ::::::The simple, inexorable truth is that in properly holding to "cannon", there may never be a definitive answer. As has been admirably addressed, this has never been stated "on screen". I choose to list Trill as a member for two reasons: ::::::1) I belive any race that has been so capable, eloquent, and accepting of foreign policies/customs/ideas as the Trill (as I have viewed/interpreted them) would be actively courted by the UFP for membership. This is not to say the entire race behaves so, but I feel establishes a "template" of intelligent beings who have seen most, done much, and yet are continually reborn(?) with a sense of purpose most of us feel only in early adult life. Perhaps this is "functionally" true of only joined Trill, but given the apparent reverance joining has in Trill society it seems likely that "hopefully-too-be-joined hosts" would cultivate an openess for ideas and experiences to prepare for whatever memories/experiences may come from their symbiote. If any "presented" race has UFP all over it, I would submit it is the Trill. ::::::2) There are 150 member races, most of which are unnamed. This was done to leave room for future writers to fill in blanks... and I belive the very existence of this debate has given the Trill authority to claim one of them. ::::::I also believe... we all welcome dissenting opinion. Rami668 10:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC) :::::::In the episode 4x06 Rejoined where Jadzia meets a previous wife of Dax, it is stated that becoming intimate with a former host's lover is a taboo resulting in exile. I think it's highly unlikely that the Federation would accept a planet which is willing to exile a member of its group for committing a taboo, thereby sentencing the symbiont to a death sentence. 17:10, November 17, 2009 (UTC) 2010 Several people have mentioned the similarities between the UFP and the USA. I'd just like to note that US citizenship is not required to serve in our armed forces. In fact, many resident non-citizens serve in our military specifically because they automatically become eligible for citizenship afterward. – 10:12, February 4, 2010 (UTC) :Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe enlistment in the US armed forces only speeds up the citizenship process. I do not think it is automatic. --Andaryn 02:32, March 2, 2010 (UTC) : If i remember correctly, the enlistment to the US army is not mandatory, nearly voluntery and you must be a citizen of United States of the america. So no, its not automatic. --JHawx 05:53, March 4, 2010 (UTC) :: There is also a guestion of who they accept to be taken onto the academy. If the Trill hasent been accepted to starfleet union of planets, how its member can be taken as an cadet and up to officer? Judgia Dax is a science officer within federation. This means s/he would have to be enlisted first. Theres several arguements, as theres worf, half kligons and so on that has been accepted to academy, but is it because the other half is human? Or the Spock, but he is a vulcan which is a part of federation, So besides Trill, is there any non Human /halfhuman non federation officer on the series? --JHawx 05:53, March 4, 2010 (UTC) P.S. Scratch that, the Borg teenager from Voyager was admitted to the academy. --JHawx 16:29, March 10, 2010 (UTC) i would like to point out that in episode equlibrium, Sisko threatens to inform the public of the secret of the trill commission, this would be a clear violation of the prime directive UNLESS they were already part of the federation. in fact he would have to let jadzia die to not violate it and the scientists don't even consider the prime directive. therefore it has to be a federation plant--pugtm 3/7/2010 ::: The population of Trill is very low. It seems likely they would become a member because of this reason alone. :::: The point about the Prime Directive is actually a good one, the Docs did not say "you can't do that, it's aganist your PD" which they surely would have if they were members. That said, it's probably not enough to state "They're members" as a fact.--31dot 09:32, June 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::I'm not quite sure what kind of proof we're after, here. I don't think the standard should be that we require a script somewhere to actually say the words, "Trill is a Federation world." I really wonder whether every world we currently list as definitely Federation has had those words applied to it on screen, or if we allow some common sense to guide us. I think it's quite clear from that Trill is a Federation world. Look at the situation described. Odan is an ambassador, ferried by the Federation starship Enterprise, unusually wearing a Federation com-badge, to mediate a dispute between two moons circling a script-defined Federation world. The very fact that the script never calls him a Federation ambassador is proof that he is one. Everyone featured on screen throughout the entire episode is a Federation citizen, so it's unnecessary to call him a Federation ambassador. The whole thing is a domestic dispute. Put another way, since Peliar Zel II is a Federation world experiencing civil war, what other kind of ambassador would he be but a Federation one? :::::Now, I can hear you say, "Well, he could be Federation, but this doesn't necessarily mean Trill is." Hmmmm. That's being a bit deliberately obtuse, in my mind. If it were just him, maybe. But then you've got Curzon Dax. So, it just happens the Federation has two Trill ambassadors? And then there's Emony Dax, who was an Olympic gymnast. So the Olympics are now opened to non-Federation members? I mean, okay, that one's possible. We don't know what the Olympics are like in the Star Trek Universe, but Emony certainly seems to have had the run of Earth. And looking at the Dax symbiont, there's three Federation government employees in a row? How likely is that if Trill is actually non-aligned? And let's just look at the Starfleet hosts. As someone has pointed out before, we know from canon that it's more difficult for a non-Federation member to join Starfleet. It seems unlikely that two hosts (one of them quite random and accidental) within the space of about a decade would be in Starfleet if the Trill aren't in the Federation. :::::Then there are a few other little "tells", it seems to me: :::::*In — Bashir goes rummaging through the Trill central database, and later Sisko orders a linkage to the Trill communications grid. Both happen instantly, without having to refer to any Trill authorities. I just don't think if the Romulans came into orbit, they'd have the same right of instant access. A Federation ship has that kind of free reign because Trill's in the Federation, it seems to me. reject the [[Prime Directive] argument, above, because the Prime Directive is a slippery, nebulous concept that's more situationally than absolutely defined by canon. As between two warp-capable species, I don't think Sisko's actions to expose a lie here would clearly be a violation. Besides, Sisko's just threatening, not doing.] :::::*In , people are missing the most obvious case for Trill being a part of the Federation. It's not the extradition thing, that's been argued above — although, frankly, I'm perfectly happy with that argument. It's in Sisko's defense of Dax. At one point he orders Kira, "Major... I'm not asking you to be an attorney here, but... If you'd check the Federation computers for any precedents... legal decisions involving Trills..." Why would there be precedent in Federation law if Trill wasn't in the Federation? :::::*In , Dax asks Arjin if his father wanted him to join Starfleet after being joined. Then follows an entire scene about whether he's going to be in Starfleet after his joining. Again, you could make the argument that individuals do not dictate a society, or that you don't have to be a Federation citizen to be a Starfleet officer, but I don't think that's reasonable. Arjin is yet another Trill for whom Starfleet service seems possible and comparatively easier than what we saw with the clearly non-Federation Nog. Joining Starfleet is depicted as a natural course of action for Trills, which would only reasonably be the case if they were citizens of the Federation. :::::*Likewise, there are Trill officers in and . I think I can count at least 10 individual Trill off the top of my head in Starfleet uniforms (or considering wearing one). How many does it take before reasonable observation of canon leads one to believe they're a regular part of the Federation. There are more Trills depicted in Starfleet uniforms or identified as Federation ambassadors than there are Betazoids. Yet we don't at all question Betazoids as members of the Federation, do we? :::::In sum, I think we're going to extremes on this issue that we don't for others. I'm not sure it's ever been explicitly stated what the rank insignia mean in TOS. But we quite happily write articles here about those insignia based solely upon our observation of episodes. We know what a captain's insignia is, not because we've been told it, but because we've been told, "Kirk is captain" and we then notice what insignia he wears. Same thing here. We don't need to be told Trill is a part of the Federation. There are too many in Starfleet and the Feeration diplomatic corps for them not to be. Moreover, a common-sense reading of various bits of dialogue leads inexorably to the conclusion that they must be Federation members. CzechOut ☎ | 04:15, July 11, 2010 (UTC) One more piece of evidence: in "Invasive Procedures," the Trill Verad worked as the communications clerk at the Federation consulate on Khefka IV, before he was "recalled to Trill." Of course, there are ways to explain away the first part. We can concoct some story about how the Federation hires non-citizens and sends them off to random planets to decode sensitive diplomatic messages. Or we might posit that hordes of Trill become naturalized Federation citizens. But I think you have to tell a pretty wild tale indeed to explain why Federation diplomatic personnel can be "recalled to Trill."Mars Defense Perimeter 05:24, December 7, 2010 (UTC) 2011 This is a very interesting and thought-provoking discussion. While we are unable to definitively prove in favor or against Federation membership, there are some compelling arguments on both sides. I had always thought and felt that Trill was a member of the Federation, and many of the ideas supporting that have been covered here. I may have found one more. * From the page for Trill Science Ministry: :: "The Trill Science Ministry is an educational institute and one of the premiere institutes of science in the Federation, on par with the Vulcan Science Academy." So the Trill Science Ministry has a reputation for being one of the top rated, five star science ministries out there; but if the Trill homeworld was not a Federation member, would the TSM be referred to as "one of the premiere science institutes in the Federation'"''? It would be nice if the quoted entry included an episode citation where it was stated about the Trill Science Ministry. '''REASSOCIATION AND ODAN' Also, some have mentioned how Odan's willingness to resume the relationship with Crusher contradicts the later-established law against Reassociation. Memory Alpha tells us that the law against Reassociation is instituted by the Symbiosis Commission and Trill culture considers it taboo; well what if not all Trill people subscribe to the notion that it is taboo, and therefore knowingly and willfully ignore the taboo and violate the law -- just as people in our quantum reality knowingly and intentionally violate laws with which they don't agree, and I'm not just talking about violent, sociopathic criminals committing rape or murder, but "normal" and "good" people who consume illegal substances for enjoyment (like Kirk serving illegal Romulan Ale at official diplomatic dinners) or people who park in Handicap parking spaces when they aren't handicapped. So perhaps some members of the Trill society vehemently uphold the law and taboo prohibiting Reassociation, while some others think it is a stupid rule and willfully violate it -- as we saw Jadzia Dax herself cast aside that taboo/law and express willingness to resume a romance with Lenara Kahn. Jadzia did not automatically and stubbornly denounce the idea of rekindling a previous romance, the way some Trill would never even consider it a possible option (due to fear of being persecuted or shame of being "bad"). So if we look again at Odan, we can see that he was a spacefaring ambassador, not someone who is always stationed at the Trill homeworld. So it is entirely plausible that Odan would be willing to "commit the heinous crime" of Reassociaton since, as Kirk pointed out, there are advantages to being a thousand light-years from your government's watchful and condemning eye. The other tidbit about Odan and the discovery of the Symbiont by the Enterprise-D crew as "evidence" that Trill was/is not a member of the Federation is unconvincing to me due to two words: Pon farr. :"The pon farr is a Vulcan time of mating and the rituals following it are shrouded under a veil of mystery and secrecy. It is considered to be a very private matter within Vulcan society, '''so much that only a handful of Starfleet doctors have ever handled it."'' If I remember correctly, when the pon farr was introduced to viewers in , it was also a new discovery for Kirk and crew -- which would mean the Vulcans were members of the UFP for over a hundred years and the majority of Starfleet personnel didn't know anything about the phenomenon. TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS And as for Jadzia having to cover up her spots when on the original USS Enterprise... Her covering them up could have nothing to do with Trill being unknown to the Federation or humans of the 2260s, but it could be that since the Constitution-class ships had such a smaller crew compared to the Federation ships of the 2370s she may have covered her spots because there were no Trill crew members assigned to the USS Enterprise. If the DS9 crew weren't historically knowledgeable enough to remember the crew roster of the NCC-1701, it would be easy enough to look up on the ship's computer. If Jadzia happened to run into Kirk or Spock, or even Chekov, their reaction may have been "A Trill? There are no Trills assigned to this wessel. How did you get on board?" instead of "OMG! A woman with spots! What in blazes are you?!" Or did they explicitly state in that episode that Kirk and crew had never seen a Trill before? It's been a while since I saw the episode. --DeyvID 10:58, January 21, 2011 (UTC) 2012 Since we know there is a precedent for colonies made up of races that are normally associated with the UFP but are not actually Federation planets (specifically I'm thinking of Turkana IV, but also to an extent places like Mintaka III, Moab IV, Bringloid V and Mariposa although the latter planets seem to have been settled before the UFP existed or by pre-UFP colonist descendants) maybe the abundance of Trills we see in Starfleet are from a Trill Colony that joined, not the Trill homeworld. It is the United Federation of Planets and not the United Federation of Alien Races, after all. Additionally we can't use Ezri to determine anything about Trill Federation membership by birth since she was born on New Sydney, which is neither a Trill or Federation colony. Angurisneo 00:38, February 11, 2012 (UTC) 2019 Previous comments about Federation ambassadors coming from Federation worlds - in Discovery, Saru is A Kelpien. Their world is not part of the Federation, yet Saru is First Officer of the Discovery. So we can't rely on having roles in the Federation as an indicator of homeworld membership. :Instead of making users sift through 15 years of debate, I summed up the debate on the article front page as "The Trill homeworld is most likely a member of the Federation but it is never explicitly stated and therefore is left uncertain. For all relevant information: See Talk Page." RexxiA (talk) 02:54, August 26, 2019 (UTC) ::It can summed up far more simply as "It is unclear if the Trill homeworld was a member of the Federation." We don't need to put a bunch of extra words on that. To be honest, we likely should even remove all mention of the talk page. ::We do have a practice on MA of NOT stating things that are uncertain and definitely NOT going into crazy detail on that uncertainty. -- sulfur (talk) 03:09, August 26, 2019 (UTC) :If the objective is to be simple and have brevity, than adding a few extra words actually accomplishes that. Why? Because it's incredibly NOT user friendly and NOT brief and NOT simple to force users to sift through almost 15 years of debate. You accomplish more simplicity and more brevity in the long run with a few extra words. RexxiA (talk) 03:17, August 26, 2019 (UTC) :::Don't introduce speculation, and no edit warring. Also, . - 03:29, August 26, 2019 (UTC) Plural spelling This article was changed today, adding an s to plural instances of the word Trill. I'm wondering if there are any instances of "Trills" being used. My memory is that they were usually referred to as "The Trill". If both were used, then we should favor the one that was used most(if there was one) while not totally excluding the other.--31dot 10:33, June 27, 2011 (UTC) This was done again today; can we find a specific episode where an S was used? 31dot (talk) 10:11, August 25, 2013 (UTC) :Yes, there are several instances, starting with Season 1, Episode 8 - Dax. It seems that every single time that Jadzia references the plural, she says Trills. Benjamin seems to reference the plural as Trill. I'd prefer the one with spots, as opposed to the Human friend. The issue in terms of wording the article should be which is more common as the plural- Trill or Trills. Both should be included simply as a point of information, though. 31dot (talk) 13:18, August 25, 2013 (UTC) I will find some time today to review several episodes with strong Trill storylines, so that I can provide additional data. I will post additional references later. --Rogue Orion (talk) 21:45, August 25, 2013 (UTC) :Initial supporting evidence: :DS9 Season 1, Episode 3 – A Man Alone :Scene 1 – Jadzia in a holosuite, practicing her mastery of an Altonian brain teaser. :Julian – “You are remarkable.” :Jadzia – “Julian, you & I need to have a talk about Trills and relationships.” :Scene 2 – Jadzia and Benjamn are in Quark’s, just after she orders steamed azna. :Benjamin – “I’ve missed your steamed azna.” :Jadzia – “You must miss Curzon, too.” :Benjamin – “He was … you were, are … a mentor, another father to me.” :Jadzia – “This happens to Trills, Benjamin. Sometimes our friendships with other species don’t survive because of the change.” :Scene 3 – Julian joins Jadzia as she walks along the lower level of the Promenade. :Julian – “I guess I know the competition now.” :Jadzia – “What are you talking about, Julian ?” :Julian – “Well, did you have a nice dinner with Commander Sisko ?” :Jadzia – “Julian, Trills do not look for romance the same ways humans do. In fact, we find it quite a nuisance.” :Julian – “A nuisance ?” :Jadzia – “It’s a weakness of the young and although a Trill host may have these … feelings occasionally, it is our wish to live on a higher plane to :try to rise above these kinds of temptations.” :DS9 Season 1, Episode 8 – Dax :Scene 4 – Benjamin is strategizing in his office with Julian & Nerys regarding Dax’s defense. :Benjamin – “Major, I’m not asking you to be an attorney here but if you could check the Federation Computers for any precendents … legal decisions :involving Trills.” :Scene 4 – Ilon Tandro calls Minister Peers to the witness stand. :Ilon – “Minister Peers, we are fortunate to have you with us.” :Madam Arbiter – “Excuse me, it also seems rather convenient to have you with us. How do you come here ?” :Minister Peers – “Because another Trill is involved, the Trillian Government requested that I be present during the extradition.” :Madam Arbiter – “And do you know the accused personally ?” :Minister Peers – “I do not.” :Madam Arbiter – “We accept you as an expert on Trills. Proceed.” :--Rogue Orion (talk) 15:59, August 27, 2013 (UTC) Are there any examples outside of the first season? First seasons often differ slightly from the rest of the series. Again, that's not to say that we shouldn't mention "Trills" at all(or Trillian for that matter) but the wording of the article as a whole should use what is most common. 31dot (talk) 21:42, August 27, 2013 (UTC) You are quite correct. I am continuing my research of the topic & will post additional references within the next couple of days. The Trill Government was only referred to as "Trillian" that once by Minister Peers. We could either consider that a first season boo-boo, or that the Minister never learned the Federation Standard Language & the UT in Quark's wasn't exactly top-notch. For the latter, perhaps he got a discount. -- 22:25, August 28, 2013 (UTC) My research continues & these are the latest references that I have found: DS9 Season 2, Episode 3 – The Siege Scene 4 – Nerys & Jadzia are at the Lunar V Base looking for a subimpulse raider. Nerys – “Can you believe a year ago, I was living in a camp like this ? Only not quite so nice. Jadzia – “Have I mentioned how allergic Trills are to insect bites ?” Nerys – “Really ?” Jadzia – “Well, the biochemical connections between host and symbiont can’t tolerate the … oh! Whoa ! What’s that ? Is that a spider or a dog ?” Scene 5 – Jadzia had just effected repairs & managed to active the engines of the raider. Jadzia – “How did you ever win a war in these things ?” Nerys – “We were the insects, Lieutenant. The Cardassians were just as allergic as Trills.” DS9 Season 2, Episode 17 – Playing God Scene 5 – Arjin is drinking at Quark’s, after his confrontation with Jadzia in the Science Lab. Arjin – “Never trust a Trill, Quark.” Quark – “Why not ?” Arjin – “They’re … two-faced.” Quark – “Does that go for all Trills or just for the ones with the worm ?” Arjin – “Any worm named Dax.” DS9 Season 2, Episode 19 – Blood Oath Scene 3 – Kang & Jadzia are on the upper level of the Promenade, talking. Kang – “Would you eat from the heart of the Albino, Jadzia Dax ? I know about the Trills from my long friendship with Curzon. And I know that each new host has no obligation to past commitments.” DS9 Season 3, Episode 4 – Equilibrium Scene 4 – Jadzia, Benjamin & Julian are at the Symbiosis Commission in an exam room. Jadzia – “Maybe the Guardians could help me.” Julian – “The Guardians ?” Benjamin – “They’re unjoined Trill who have devoted their lives to the care of the symbionts.” Jadzia – “They know more about them than anyone.” DS9 Season 3, Episode 25 – Facets Scene 1 – Jadzia has gathered the senior staff, Quark & Leeta in the wardroom for a meeting. Jadzia – “The zhian’tara is a ritual where joined Trills get a chance to actually meet their previous hosts.” Scene 2 – Jadzia is explaining how she will be able to interact with her previous hosts. Jadzia – “The memories are transferred telepathically by a Guardian.” Odo – “A Guardian ?” Leeta – “They take care of the symbionts. Usually, they’re unjoined Trill.” --Rogue Orion (talk) 09:10, September 9, 2013 (UTC) Personally I think the article is fine the way it is currently, but I won't stand in the way of any changes in this area. 31dot (talk) 15:41, September 9, 2013 (UTC) I appreciate your wanting canon references one way or the other. I also tend to live by the philosophy of "trust but verify." There are additional references, if you would like for me to continue my research of the topic. --Rogue Orion (talk) 09:44, September 11, 2013 (UTC) Trill Telepathy Both the Guardians and joined Trill in both Jadzia and Ezri Dax have demonstrated specific telepathic abilities related to the interaction between symbiont and host; however, the appearance of an unjoined Trill telepath in "Facets" makes it clear that telepathy is not related to being joined. It's implied in dialog that the Trill Guardians' telepathy doesn't represent the entire population, but it begs the question of just how widespread and adaptable Trill telepathy is, and whether it's shared by the entire population or just a specific segment who are recruited by the Symbiosis Commission as Guardians. Lifespan How long is the lifespan of a Trill, joined with a symbiont or without? --Exodianecross (talk) 00:58, February 10, 2016 (UTC) :I don't believe that information was specifically given in an episode. We know that Jadzia was 28 in and we also know (in the alternate future seen in ) that she could live until at least 2422. There isn't any way to know if that is typical or not. For future reference, questions like this should be asked at the Reference Desk, as article talk pages are for discussing article changes only. 31dot (talk) 01:55, February 10, 2016 (UTC) Reassociation Is it actually illegal for Trill to reassociate? As I remember that particular episode of DS9, it is discussed as a strong taboo, and the consequence of exile is mentioned for one particular case, but it isn't explicitly stated as a legal matter. Nokem (talk) 06:30, October 13, 2017 (UTC) :Talk pages are not the place for general questions, you might want to try the reference desk instead. -- Capricorn (talk) 15:33, October 15, 2017 (UTC) Male Trill image Apologies if this is already discussed somewhere (I looked and couldn't find anything on this page about this topic but it's possible I overlooked something). Anyway, I do not agree with the decision to use Odan as the picture for the "male Trill." It gives the impression that female trill have spots and male trill have bumpy foreheads. I really think the main "male and female" examples should be from the designs used for the majority of the franchise. As far as I know, Odan's design was used only once, in "The Host," and never again. I'm not saying we shouldn't acknowledge that canonically these are indeed Trill, but they clearly aren't the majority of the Trill population, as DS9, the TNG movies, and Voyager show us. Trill in DIS Did we have confirmation that it was a Trill in "Will You Take My Hand?" It could be a Kriosian as they had been ruled by the Klingons. 31dot (talk) 13:11, February 18, 2018 (UTC)